От Глеб Бараев
К АК
Дата 01.08.2000 15:39:46
Рубрики WWII; Танки; 1941;

Прочитав ветку

Считаю, что попытки уважаемого М.Свирина свести все к вымыслу Пенежко(я бы добавил еще и литобработчика) несостоятельны.
1.Коломиец проверял документацию дивизии и об этом бое ничего не нашел.Прекрасно.Но по той же документации писал свои мемуары Рябышев.Желтых танков он не упоминает, но сам бой одним абзацем описывает.Место, время, количество танков с обеих сторон описанию Пенежко не противоречат.
2.Тот же Коломиец мог бы отыскать в архивах дневник Пенежко, по которому писалась книга.
3.Есть одно независимое подтверждение - рассказ, по немецким данным, о гибели одного NbFz VI (Reinmetall) 28-29 июня под Дубно.Совпадают: место, время, внешние признаки танка.Не совпадает: количество.
С уважением, Глеб Бараев
От Игорь Куртуков
К Глеб Бараев (01.08.2000 15:39:46)
Дата 01.08.2000 17:45:05

Что за рассказ по немецким данным?

>3.Есть одно независимое подтверждение - рассказ, по немецким данным, о гибели одного NbFz VI (Reinmetall) 28-29 июня под Дубно.

Источник?

С уважением, Игорь Куртуков
От Глеб Бараев
К Игорь Куртуков (01.08.2000 17:45:05)
Дата 02.08.2000 01:49:55

Краткая информаци

>>3.Есть одно независимое подтверждение - рассказ, по немецким данным, о гибели одного NbFz VI (Reinmetall) 28-29 июня под Дубно.
>
>Источник?

Нашел в сети, зарядив в Altavista слово Reinmetall.Еа хорошо известном сайте.Хотите сами попробовать, или мне "колоться"?

С уважением, Глеб Бараев
От Игорь Куртуков
К Глеб Бараев (02.08.2000 01:49:55)
Дата 02.08.2000 01:53:25

Лучше колитесь (-)
От Глеб Бараев
К Игорь Куртуков (02.08.2000 01:53:25)
Дата 02.08.2000 01:57:44

Ладно

У Парады в разделе профилей, в статье про NbFz
URL нужен?

С уважением, Глеб Бараев
От Игорь Куртуков
К Глеб Бараев (02.08.2000 01:57:44)
Дата 02.08.2000 02:09:10

Вот такой текст

> PzKpfw NbFz V (Rheinmetall) Development of new medium tank started in October of 1932 and in 1933, Army High Command granted a contract for a development of "heavy tractor" (Grosstraktor). Both Rheinmetall-Borsig and Krupp were ordered to develop heavy tank and both provided their designs. At first vehicles were designated as PzKpfw VII (PzKpfw IV neu Art), but in October of 1933, they were designated as Neubaufahrzeug ("Newly Built Vehicle"). Rheinmetall's Model A and Krupp's Model B were very similar in their overall design and mainly differed in the armament and arrangement of the weapons mounted in the turret. Rheinmetall's (PzKpfw NbFz V) design had 37mm Tankkanone L/45 installed over a 75mm KwK L/24 and Krupp's (PzKpfw NbFz VI) design had 37mm Tankkanone L/45 installed beside 75mm KwK L/24. Both designs had two slightly modified Panzer I's turrets armed with machine guns (one mounted in the front and other in the rear). Those two tank designs were to complete the family of standardized German tanks. PzKpfw NbFz V and VI's designs were very similar to the British Vickers "Independent" tank, Soviet T-35, French Char-2C and proved to be too complex to produce and did not perform as expected. Only two (designated Nr.1 and Nr.2) mild steel prototypes were built by Rheinmetall in 1934 and three more armoured prototypes (designated Nr.3, Nr.4 and Nr.5) in 1935/36. NbFz Nr.1 was the only one mounted with Rheinmetall's turret armed with 37mm Tankkanone L/45 installed over a 75mm KwK L/24 gun and turret mounted frame antenna. Other four vehicles were mounted with Krupp's turret armed with 37mm Tankkanone L/45 installed beside 75mm KwK L/24. From 1935 to 1936, all five were extensively tested on the proving grounds at Putloss. In 1937, it was decided to convert NbFz tanks to Nebel Panzer armed with 105mm gun able to fire smoke ammunition, but there is no further evidence. At that time the German Army wanted to gain experience with multi-turreted tanks but soon this project was cancelled in favour of the Panzer IV development which would eventually become the main battle tank of the Panzertruppe. Overall multi-turreted tanks were inferior to German designs and tactics which relied on high mobility rate instead of firepower. NbFz Nr.1 (Rheinmetall) in the Krupp factory in 1942. Three (with Krupp turret) of the five saw service with Panzer Abteilung zur besonderer Vervendung 40 (Panzerzug Horstmann / Zug Putloss) in Norway in 1940. They arrived in Oslo on April 19th of 1940 and gave the appearance of Germany having heavy tanks. Two served with PzAbt zbV 40, while the third served with 196th Infantry Division. This particular vehicle was immobilized but not destoyed by the British soldiers (see "The History of a Rare Panzer" below), while one of two from PzAbt zbV 40, drove into the swampy area and got stuck and was eventually blown up by the German engineers (that explains "The History of a Rare Panzer" below). On May 16th, the lost Nbfz was replaced by one of the mild steel prototypes and PzAbt zbV 40 had once again three NbFz tanks. It is known that PzAbt zbV 40 was stationed in Norway in 1941 and then in Finland in 1942, but it seems that NbFz tanks never left Norway and were eventually captured by the Allies in 1945 and then scrapped. German source states that NbFz tanks were part of 1st Panzer Gruppe on the Eastern Front and that one of them was destroyed near Dubno on June 29th of 1941. Another source states that other two were destroyed near Rumanian border in June of 1941. It is also reported that both returned to Germany in November of 1941. The only photographic evidence is that from Krupp factory from mid 1942, where one of Nbfz (Nr.1) tanks is being repaired with Sturmgeschutz III(40) assault guns on production line in the background. Probably one of two mild steel prototypes built in 1934 remained in Germany for tests and was eventually scrapped in 1941. The development of Leichte Traktor, Grosstraktors and Neubaufahrzeugs provided German designers and manufacturers with valuable experience in des igning and producing the next generation of more powerful panzers that were soon to come.



PzKpfw NbFz VI (Krupp) Specifications for Krupp Design - PzKpfw NbFz VI Weight: 23000kg Crew: 6 men Engine: BMW Va / 12-cylinder / 290hp Maybach HL 108 TR / 12-cylinder / 300hp Speed: Road: 30km/h Range: Road: 120km Lenght: 6.65m Width: 2.90m Height: 2.90m Armament: 1 x 75mm KwK L/23.5 & 1 x 37mm KwK L/45 (turret) 2 x 7.92mm MG13 (2 small turrets) Ammo: 105mm - approx. 80 rounds 37mm - 50 rounds 7.92mm - 6000 rounds Armor: 13-20mm

The History of a Rare Panzer. Provided by Simon Orchard.

On the 25th April 1940, Gruppe Pellangahr (made up of elements of the 196 Infantry Division and some of PzAbt zbV 40 - special employment unit) ran into a British blocking position held by the 1st Battalion of Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry at the village of Kvam. The British had no heavy weapons only two 3" mortars and five 25mm Hotchkiss anti-tank guns. The lead element of the German advance included 3 panzers at least one of which was a NbFz VI (I believe there may have been two of them but I'm not sure). The British held their fire until the enemy was at the range of 150 yards and then opened fire. The Panzers then attempted to manoeuvre into position, it was at this time that the NbFz VI was put out of action by one of the anti-tank guns (I believe also that a second panzer was immobilised). The Germans stopped to bring up their guns and call up the Luftwaffe, the Brits managed to hold on until the evening of the 26th before withdrawing. The remains of the NbFz VI (a section of the running gear) can still be seen in the small museum at Kvam and until the late 1980's the 25mm anti-tank gun was still to be seen in good condition, left in spot where it was left by its previous owners in April of 1940.

Только вот уровень компетентности оставляет желать... Например NbFz VI - хе-хе...
От Глеб Бараев
К Игорь Куртуков (02.08.2000 02:09:10)
Дата 02.08.2000 02:18:52

Re: Вот такой текст

Из всего текста можно ограничиться одним предолжением.

>Только вот уровень компетентности оставляет желать... Например NbFz VI - хе-хе...

Или хи-хи.Я где-то читал, что NbFZ v и VI соответственно "крупп" и "рейнметалл"
С уважением, Глеб Бараев