От А.Елисеенко
К All
Дата 12.10.2006 17:58:58
Рубрики WWII; Танки;

Американцы очень быстро нашли способ защиты танков от РПГ?

Приветствую!

Американцы очень быстро нашли способ защиты танков от РПГ?

Вот такая статистика.

США. Нормандия.1944 год.

Июнь.

ПТО: 56,25%
РПГ: 28,13%
Мины: 3,13%
Артиллерия: 3,13%

Июль:

ПТО: 41,1%
РПГ: 32,88%
Мины: 16,44%
Неуст.причины: 4,11%

Август:

ПТО: 55,38%
Неуст.причины: 18,46%
Артиллерия: 6,15%
РПГ: 5,38%
Минометы: 1,54%


Вопрос к сообществу. В чем причина столь резкого снижения потерь от РПГ? Изменение тактики?, но вроде америкосы особым разнообразием тактики не страдали. Или у немцев панцершреки закончились?

Dovidjenja & živeo!
От timsz
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 13.10.2006 12:10:03

По-хорошему, чтобы вывод делать надо еще статистику за сентябрь-октябрь видеть. (-)
От А.Елисеенко
К timsz (13.10.2006 12:10:03)
Дата 13.10.2006 12:11:53

У меня есть только частично копии. Всего отчета союзников не имею. (-)
От БорисК
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 13.10.2006 06:22:24

Re: Американцы очень...

>Вопрос к сообществу. В чем причина столь резкого снижения потерь от РПГ? Изменение тактики?, но вроде америкосы особым разнообразием тактики не страдали. Или у немцев панцершреки закончились?

Поначалу бои в Нормандии шли в очень специфической местности. Вот вид сверху на ее типичный участок:



Это небольшие, в среднем 60 на 120 м древние поля, разделенные не межами, а колючими кустарниками. За века обработки между ними образовались целые валы, высота которых вместе с кустарниками доходила до 5 м.



Даже танки не могли сквозь них продраться. По их сторонам проходили дренажные канавы. Видимость была не дальше одного поля. Дороги между ними были узкими и легко простреливались с обеих сторон.



Это была идеальная местность для засад и фаустников. Немцы действовали небольшими группами. При попытках переползти через валы танки подставляли свое днище и легко подбивались, тем более, что ничего не видели впереди. Вот типичная схема засады:



Американцы применяли бульдозеры и взрывчатку для проделывания проходов через валы с колючими кустарниками. Но танковых бульдозеров было мало, всего около 40 к концу июля, а закладывать взрывчатку было долго и опасно. Тогда сержант Curtis G. Culin из 2-й тд придумал приварить к обычному "Шерману" бивни, сваренные из немецких дорожных и береговых заграждений, которые имелись в изобилии.



Снабженный ими танк сходу буквально вырубал кусок вала вместе с кустарником наверху, который некоторое время продолжал ехать на танке и защищал его от немецкого огня. 14 июля их продемонстрировали генералу Брэдли. Он их сразу оценил и приказал немедленно организовать их массовое изготовление силами армейских мастерских. С 14 по 25 июля выпустили свыше 500 комплектов, которые в войсках приваривали к обычным танкам. К концу июля 60% "Шерманов" 1-й армии были оснащены ими. Это позволило быстро прорваться сквозь заграждения в ходе операции "Кобра", начатой 25 июля, и выйти на оперативный простор.
От Bell
К БорисК (13.10.2006 06:22:24)
Дата 13.10.2006 17:33:40

Фотография в тему

из книги Брэдли
танки
От Bell
К Bell (13.10.2006 17:33:40)
Дата 13.10.2006 17:37:41

Да, кстати..

если кому интересно - книжка "О.Брэдли. Записки солдата, Изд. иностранной литературы, 1957"
От СВАН
К БорисК (13.10.2006 06:22:24)
Дата 13.10.2006 11:59:15

Re: Американцы очень...

В отношении действий танков в бокажах весьма рекомендую "Death Traps" Belton Y. Cooper (русское издание готовится). Куски из этой книги здесь уже цитировались: тезисно, это офицер-ремонтник (официально - офицер связи) 3-й американской бронетанковой дивизии.
Если угодно, пришлите свой работающий е-мейл и я вышлю соответствующие куски русского текста под (с).

СВАН
От БорисК
К СВАН (13.10.2006 11:59:15)
Дата 14.10.2006 09:33:22

Re: Американцы очень...

>В отношении действий танков в бокажах весьма рекомендую "Death Traps" Belton Y. Cooper (русское издание готовится). Куски из этой книги здесь уже цитировались: тезисно, это офицер-ремонтник (официально - офицер связи) 3-й американской бронетанковой дивизии.

В "Амазоне" ее почему-то ругают и предлагают по цене в 1 цент. Это нехороший признак. А Вам она понравилась?
От А.Елисеенко
К БорисК (13.10.2006 06:22:24)
Дата 13.10.2006 10:25:07

Спасибо огромное. Я очень ценю именно такие ответы! (-)
От Исаев Алексей
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 13.10.2006 00:37:17

Боевые действия стали маневренными, а не позиционными

Do not salute me. There are goddamned snipers all around this area...

Как раз в конце июля американцы вырвались на оперативный простор.

С уважением, Алексей Исаев
От Begletz
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 12.10.2006 20:58:06

Мп, из представленных вами данных однозначно следует,

что "панки с тапками не воюют"
От Исаев Алексей
К Begletz (12.10.2006 20:58:06)
Дата 13.10.2006 00:36:24

"ПТО" здесь явно ПТП+танки (-)
От Begletz
К Исаев Алексей (13.10.2006 00:36:24)
Дата 13.10.2006 01:43:57

А что тогда "артиллерия?" Свыше 105 мм? (-)
От Исаев Алексей
К Begletz (13.10.2006 01:43:57)
Дата 13.10.2006 01:47:11

Полевая 105-150 мм и sIG-33 какие-нибудь (-)
От Begletz
К Исаев Алексей (13.10.2006 01:47:11)
Дата 13.10.2006 17:11:13

Я вот чего подумал: а насколько легко отличить дыру от РПГ от

дыры от любого куммулятивного снаряда? Может, этим и объясняется рост "неустановленных?"
От А.Елисеенко
К Исаев Алексей (13.10.2006 01:47:11)
Дата 13.10.2006 06:11:30

Могут быть и 75 мм (-)
От MaxS
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 12.10.2006 19:50:17

И становились все более ....

беспомощными перед "неустановленными причинами":)
От Chestnut
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 12.10.2006 18:41:39

Re: Американцы очень...

>Вопрос к сообществу. В чем причина столь резкого снижения потерь от РПГ? Изменение тактики?, но вроде америкосы особым разнообразием тактики не страдали. Или у немцев панцершреки закончились?

Местность изменилась. Танки вырвались из нормандского бокажа на оперативный простор

"Бій відлунав. Жовто-сині знамена затріпотіли на станції знов"
От Azinox
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 12.10.2006 18:30:53

Re: Американцы очень...

Здравствуйте.

>Вопрос к сообществу. В чем причина столь резкого снижения потерь от РПГ? Изменение тактики?, но вроде америкосы особым разнообразием тактики не страдали. Или у немцев панцершреки закончились?

Может быть причина в изменении характера боев ? При штурме укреплений и городов потери от огня РПГ, естественно, больше, чем при "общевойсковом" бое.

С уважением.
От ПРОФИ
К Azinox (12.10.2006 18:30:53)
Дата 12.10.2006 22:35:37

Re: Американцы очень...

Укрепления может быть и штурмовали, города им доставались без боя, насколько наслышан. А падение потерь скорее всего объясняется ослаблением немецкого сопротивления. иссяканием рессурсов итп. С уважением
От tsa
К Azinox (12.10.2006 18:30:53)
Дата 12.10.2006 18:34:08

Скорее всего..

Здравствуйте !

У нас наоборот потери от РПГ плавно растут и заметных значений достигают в Берлине.

С уважением, tsa.
От А.Елисеенко
К tsa (12.10.2006 18:34:08)
Дата 12.10.2006 18:48:19

Несколько не так

Приветствую!
>Здравствуйте !

>У нас наоборот потери от РПГ плавно растут и заметных значений достигают в Берлине.

У нас потери растут до февраля 1945, затем начинают снижаться. Об этом писали и в ВЛ и в ФИ, и А.Исаев.


Dovidjenja & živeo!
От tsa
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 18:48:19)
Дата 12.10.2006 18:54:35

Re: Несколько не...

Здравствуйте !



С уважением, tsa.
От БорисК
К tsa (12.10.2006 18:54:35)
Дата 13.10.2006 04:05:56

Re: Несколько не...

Откуда эта интереснейшая таблица?

С уважением, БорисК.
От А.Елисеенко
К БорисК (13.10.2006 04:05:56)
Дата 13.10.2006 04:24:54

Re: Несколько не...

Приветствую!
>Откуда эта интереснейшая таблица?

- Очень известная, по сути классическая таблица. Такие есть в реферате Игуменова от 1947 года. Часто эти таблицы "пилит" Широкорад.

>С уважением, БорисК.
Dovidjenja & živeo!
От БорисК
К А.Елисеенко (13.10.2006 04:24:54)
Дата 13.10.2006 08:46:04

Re: Несколько не...

>- Очень известная, по сути классическая таблица. Такие есть в реферате Игуменова от 1947 года. Часто эти таблицы "пилит" Широкорад.

Теперь вижу, почему я слышал об этой работе так много хорошего. А у Вас ее целиком нет случайно или хотя бы других таблиц? Может, есть и целая диссертация?

Кстати, Вы интересовались, что Климент и Францев написали об использовании чешских танков румынами. Держите:

ROMANIA
Romania was Czechoslovakia's ally before the war in the so called "Little Entente (Alliance)". It was a good customer for various Czechoslovak armaments. Thus it was only natural that it turned to Skoda when it needed tanks for its armored units in August 1936. The Romanians ordered 126 tanks, which for that time was a sizable order.
The Romanians wanted to see a prototype in three months, and in the summer of 1937 asked for an immediate delivery of fifteen vehicles. Skoda had to borrow tanks from the lots made for the Czechoslovak Army, but because these were still suffering various problems, the Romanians began having second thoughts.
The prototype was finally approved in August 1938, and Skoda manufactured the R-2 designated tanks between September 1,1938 and February 22,1939. The original fifteen vehicles were upgraded to the prototype standard.
Skoda tried to sell a manufacturing license for this tank to the Romanians, but was not successful, though it had shown its improved S-II-aR prototype in the fall of 1939 in Romania.
Romania took part in the invasion of the Soviet Union and used all of its armored formations in the fighting. The R-l tankettes were allocated to the Cavalry Divisions and Brigades as reconnaissance vehicles. The only lightly motorized 1st, 7th and 9th Cavalry Divisions had four each in their reconnaissance squadrons, the motorized 5th, 6th and 8th Cavalry Brigades had six each.
The latter three units took part in liberating the Northern Bucovina as part of the Romanian 3rd Army against the Soviet 12th Army. In cooperation with the German 11th Army, the Romanians crossed the River Dniester between July 17-19, 1941 and breached the heavily fortified Stalin line. On July 19, both the 3rd and the 11th Armies were made part of the Army Group South.
General Racovita's Cavalry Corps joined the German XI Corps, and once the Stalin line was breached, formed the Korne Mechanized Detachment to exploit the opportunity. The detachment consisted of the 6th Mechanized Infantry Regiment, 2nd, 3rd and 5th Mechanized Squadrons with 18 R-l tankettes, a mechanized pioneer platoon and a section of truck-borne 7.5 cm mountain guns. Korne's unit joined with the Lindemann armored detachment. Colonel Korne distinguished himself in the following battles to such an extent that even Hitler himself mentioned his activities.
The 3rd Army fought between German 11th and 17th Armies. It cleared the Uman pocket in late July, destroying the Soviet 12th Army, and proceeded to Krivoi Rog. On September 19, it crossed the River Dnieper at Berislav and at a personal request of General von Manstein, a new commander of the 11th Army, took defensive positions in the Nogai Steppe.
On September 26, the Soviet 9th and 18th Armies attacked the 3rd Army with twelve rifle divisions. The situation became quite critical both for the lightly equipped Romanians and for the German formations. The Cavalry Corps was attacked between September 26 and October 3 by at least four Soviet rifle divisions with tank, artillery and aerial support, but held. The front of the 5th Cavalry Brigade at Akimovka was breached on September 26, but Colonel Korne counterattacked with his 2nd Mechanized Squadron and 6th Mechanized Rosiori and closed the breach.
The situation stabilized only after the arrival of the SS 1st Motorized Division in early October. During this battle the Cavalry Corps lost 32% of its strength and all of its R-1 tankettes. Most of these were recovered and repaired, and in the summer of 1942 the Cavalry divisions still had 29 of them. The 5th, 6th and 9th Cavalry Divisions formed General Racovita's Cavalry Corps, which fought as part of the Romanian 3rd Army, commanded by General Dumitrescu, during the conquest of Crimea and the advance into the Caucacus between August and October 1942. The end of the R-1 tankettes came during the Soviet offensive in November 1942, which fell most heavily on the front held by the Romanian army. The Cavalry divisions had to destroy their remaining tankettes, due to the lack of fuel. Nevertheless, eleven of these brave little vehicles survived to the end of the war and took part in the liberation of Czechoslovakia in April 1945.
The mainstay of the Romanian armored formations were the R-2 tanks, which were formed into the 1st Armored Regiment, stationed at Tirgoviste. The 2nd Armored Regiment had 75 Renault R-35 tanks. Both regiments were joined to form the 1st Armored Division. The division was not fully formed by 1941, and was split up before the invasion of the Soviet Union, because the slow and underpowered R-35 tanks could not keep pace with the fast Skoda R-2s.
For the liberation of Northern Bukovina, the Romanian 3rd Army was assigned the 1st Armored Division, but without its 2nd regiment, which was assigned to the 4th Army's III Corps. They were part of the Army Group Antonescu, formed for this operation, and comprising also the German 11th Army.
The 1st Armored Division crossed the River Prut on July 3, 1941 and thrust toward Mogilev on the River Dniester. The retreating Soviets, supported by elements of the 2nd Mechanized Corps, made a stand at Brinzeni, where the first tank versus tank engagement took place. The Romanians destroyed two T-28 tanks for the loss of one of their R-2s. Due to fierce Soviet resistance in the southern sector, the 1st Armored Division was turned south and used to envelop the Soviet defenses at the Cornesti Massif from the North.
This the division achieved on July 14, with a loss of only two R-2s. Repulsing the Soviet counterattack the next day, the division in the 16th took Chisinau, where it lost one R-2 destroyed and five damaged. It wiped out the Soviet rearguard and chased its remnants over the Dniester on July 19, loosing another 3 R-2s while overrunning the Soviet artillery positions.
With the liberation of Besarabia complete, the Army Group Antonescu was dissolved. The 4th Army was reorganized for the invasion of Soviet Union proper, and on August 3 started crossing line River Dniester. The 1st Armored Division crossed on August 5 and was subordinated to V Corps. Its objective was to sweep behind Odessa and cut it off from the main Soviet forces. The drive from Bujalik to the coast took from August 11 to August 14, and was very costly. The opposing Soviet troops were of high quality, and the Romanian infantry was not trained for cooperation with and proleclion of its tanks. The division lost five tanks on the 11th, eight on the 12th, nine on the 13th and 25 on the 14th!
The 1st Armored Regiment was now shifted west to support III Corps. It attacked on August 18 and broke through the Soviet line at Karpovo, but its supporting infantry was not able to follow the tanks, which were caught in the open. Soviet antitank guns destroyed eleven tanks and damaged twenty four.
On August 20, the 1st Armored Regiment had only twenty R-2s left, while 46 were sent back for repairs. The 1st Armored Division supported the I Corps, but due to the weakened state of the division, it could not be shifted to the 3rd Army, as requested by the Germans.
The 2nd Armored Regiment lost half its R-35 to mechanical breakdowns, but found that the heavily armored Renaults were well suited to support infantry attacks. They were used to support the attacks of the I Corps on the western flank.
Following the Soviet army evacuation of Odessa by October 16, the damaged and destroyed tanks were shipped back to Romania for repairs. In June-July 1942, the Romanians obtained additional 26 PzKpfw 35(t) from the Germans to replace battle losses.
The fully refurbished and retrained 1st Armored Division with 109 R-2 tanks arrived at Stalino on August 29, 1942 under the command of General Gherghe. It was to act as a mobile reserve of the Romanian 3rd Army, which was guarding the left flank of the German 6th Army at Stalingrad.
During the training, the R-2s were firing against several captured T-34 tanks. The crews have found to their dismay that the 3.7 cm gun has no effect on the T-34's armor. The test had also persuaded the Germans that the division needed new equipment. The division got on October 17 eleven PzKpfw IVGs and eleven PzKpfw IIINs to form medium tank companies in each R-2 battalion.
The Soviet counteroffensive started on November 19, 1942. The Romanian infantry lines were punctured in several places by the sheer weight of tanks and attacking infantry, despite their stubborn resistance. Army Group B ordered its armored reserve, the XLV1II Panzer Corps, to counterattack with its 22nd and 14th Panzer Divisions and the Romanian 1 st Armored Division. The counterattack was disorganized from the start, as the 22nd Panzer Division was redirected from the original attack axis. Moreover, the headquarters of the 1st Armored Division was attacked during the night by a spearhead of the Soviet 26th Tank Corps. The attack was beaten back, but during it the German liaison detachment's radio was destroyed and the division thus for two days lost contact with the XLV1II Panzer Corps. The 14th Panzer Division was too weak to mount a counterattack by itself.
On November 20, the 1st Armored Division counterattacked with the reserves of the 5th Infantry Division and was soon engaged in heavy fighting between Sredne-Zarinski and Zhirkovski with the Soviet 19th and 216th Tank Brigades with their supporting infantry and a 7.62 cm antitank regiment. The division lost 25 tanks, 19 of these the R-2s.
The division tied down the Soviets, but failed to join with the 22nd Panzer Division, and the Soviet 157th Tank Brigade with supporting mechanized infantry penetrated the resulting gap and captured Perelazovskie with V Corps headquarters and the rear echelons of the 1st Armored Division.
The 1st Armored Division lost additional 20 tanks during the heavy fighting the following day. The situation was deteriorating fast, as the Soviet motorized formations were dividing and bypassing the weakened Romanians. General Dumitrescu wanted to retreat and save what remained from his army, but was ordered to hold by the Germans.
The 1st Armored Division tried to break through to the 22nd Panzer Division on November 22, and fought the Soviet 8th Tank Brigade, loosing ten more tanks. It also lost the greater part of its antitank units and fuel trucks. Following the collapse of the overtaxed Romanian infantry divisions at Golovski, the 1st Armored Division tried to break through to its depots at Cernishevskaia. At this time, it was already down to 50% of its original strength and very low on fuel. The Soviets blocked its way and the division was forced to leave 21 R-2s behind, due to lack of fuel. The division finally was able to regroup at Oserski with eleven PzKpfw Ills and IVs and nineteen R-2s.
The division got some fuel during the night of November 23/24, and more was airlifted the following day. The division was ordered to attack to help the 22nd Panzer Division to break its encirclement, but was too weak to penetrate the Soviet front and was itself heavily attacked. The situation was saved by German Stukas and the division was able to retreat behind the River Chir.
The division participated in further heavy fighting and by December 2 had only three serviceable tanks and 944 men. It lost over 5,000 men, 129 tanks and 457 trucks. It was reinforced by several hastily repaired tanks and took part in the final defensive battles, which led to the total destruction of the 3rd Romanian Army by the end of the year. The 1st Armored Division departed from the operational zone by January 1, 1943. Its survivors reached their base in Romania by March 31,1943. The division lost 81 R-2s (30 abandoned due to lack of fuel, 24 due to mechanical failure and only 27 destroyed by the enemy), ten PzKpfw Ills and ten PzKpfw IVs.
During the subsequent rearmament, the Romanians obtained PzKpfw IV and fifty PzKpfw 38(t) tanks from Germany, and the Skoda tanks were relegated to the reserves. As there were about forty of them left, the army headquarters decided to rebuild them into tank hunters. The Leonida company modified between July and September 1943 one R-2 tank by removing its turret and mounting the Soviet ZIS-3 7.62 cm M1936 antitank gun in an open, lightly armored superstructure, constructed from armor plates taken from captured BT-7 and T-26 Soviet tanks. The gun was modified for Romanian ammunition and Septilici antitank and German panoramic sights were fitted. The resulting tank hunter was called TACAM R-2 (Tun Anticar cu Afet Mobil, or self-propelled antitank gun; TACAM was a generic name of all Romanian tank-hunters).
After performance and firing tests performed at the Suditi proving grounds during late 1943, the Mechanized Troops Command gave its clearance for further conversion to be carried out by Leonida company. The work was delayed until late February 1944, because the German replacements for the R-2 tanks were slow in coming. By this time, the M1936 gun was replaced by the more modem M1941 L/46 gun. By June 1944, twenty vehicles were modified, but then the conversions were stopped, as the 7.62 cm gun was found ineffective against the Soviet heavy IS tanks. Its replacement by the German 8.8 cm gun was planned, but due to the Romanian switching sides on August 23, 1944, it never took place.
The TACAM R-2s were organized into the 63rd Tacam Company. and were used during the liberation of Bucurest, Ploesti and Northern Transylvania. Ten of them were lost. The remainder was issued in November 1944 to the 2nd Armored Regiment, which used them during the liberation of Austria and Moravia in 1945.
Two more conversions were planned on Czech chassis. In November 1943 the fourteen surviving R-1 tankettes were to be armed with the Soviet 4.5 cm antitank gun and used for security duties under the name TACAM R-1. The plan was canceled before any conversions were performed.
TACAM T-38 were meant to use the Soviet 7.62 cm antitank guns on the chassis of PzKpfw 38(t), similarly to the German SdKfz 139 lank hunter. The conversions were never begun for the same reason the TACAM R-2 program was stopped - the inadequacy of the gun.
The last project, using partially Czech chassis components, was the lank destroyer MARESAL. Begun in 1942 on a captured Soviet T-60 chassis, it developed by 1943 to a very modem tank hunter, strongly similar to the Jagdpanzer 38(t). It used the T-38 chassis, Hotchkiss engine and gearbox and the new Resita M1943 7.5 cm antitank gun. The vehicle had armor between 10 and 20 mm only, but was very fast and its testing proceeded well.
The Romanian army ordered 1,000 vehicles, based on the performance of the M-05 prototype, and planned to form 32 antitank battalions, each with 32 vehicles. As the program had Hitler's support, Rogifer company was able to start production in March 1944, but it was heavily disrupted by Allied bombing raids and damage to the railways. The first series was supposed to be finished in November 1944, but due to the Romanian switchover, it was further delayed. The whole program was stopped on October 26 by the Soviets, who took all the plans, photographs, prototypes and produced parts.

С уважением, БорисК.
От А.Елисеенко
К БорисК (13.10.2006 08:46:04)
Дата 13.10.2006 10:27:37

Увы, дессертация нет. Она у Широкорада (+)


>Теперь вижу, почему я слышал об этой работе так много хорошего. А у Вас ее целиком нет случайно или хотя бы других таблиц? Может, есть и целая диссертация?

- ее часть Широкорад пилил в Боге войны третьего рейха. Частично в книге Россия-Финляндия. Можете попробовать спросить у Старого дела на форуме РККА, возможно у него есть.

Еще раз спасибо огромное за текст. Готов в случае чего всегда прийти на помощь!
Dovidjenja & živeo!
От Amstrong
К tsa (12.10.2006 18:54:35)
Дата 12.10.2006 22:21:39

Ре: Несколько не...

на представленых фронтах 88 в последний год войны поразили болше танков чем 75.
От А.Елисеенко
К tsa (12.10.2006 18:54:35)
Дата 12.10.2006 19:07:52

Такая табличка имеет место быть, но....

- В разрезе ТА потери от РПГ с февраля падали. У Исаева в Жукове циферки имеются.


.
Dovidjenja & živeo!
От mpolikar
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 19:07:52)
Дата 12.10.2006 19:23:00

незабвенный классик детства

Митяев ("Книга будущих командиров") в ук.соч. ЕМНИП вообще писал что 50 % потерь 2 гв ТА в Берлине (102 из 204) были от фаустпатронов.
От ЖУР
К А.Елисеенко (12.10.2006 17:58:58)
Дата 12.10.2006 18:02:47

ИМХО "терминаторы" у немцев закончились очень быстро (-)