От Thorn
К Кларенс
Дата 17.01.2011 00:27:22
Рубрики Древняя история; 11-19 век;

Re: Это не...

>>Я вас приветствую! Хррр. Хрррр. Ххуррагх!
>>>>Я вас приветствую! Хррр. Хрррр. Ххуррагх!
>>>
>>>>...первая волна переселения, называемая в русских летописях Белые Угры, способствовала разгрому славянского королевства в Моравии - эти осели в Паннонии. Гнавшие их печенеги осели в степях от Дуная до Волги - богатейших степных угодьях, которые через 400 лет так обрадовали монголов.
>>>
>>>>И. Кошкин
>>>а почему так вышло, что с печенегами мы как раз рубились, а от гонимых угров данью откупились? обстановка такая была?
>>
>>...фиксируется, в общем, не по нашим источникам, а по ненашим. А откупиться предпочли именно для того, чтобы не овевать. Зачем воевать, когда можно откупиться?
>
>>И. Кошкин
>логично. собственно можно считать, что мы уже тогда были сильно страшными и сами напугали мадьяр, раз они ограничились откупом, прошли мимо и не стали с нами связываться? )
>и еще. а что за ненаши источники?

Gesta hungarorum
От Thorn
К Thorn (17.01.2011 00:27:22)
Дата 17.01.2011 00:41:42

Re: Это не...


Gesta hungarorum

Венгры разгромили рутенов /русских/ и их половецких /вероятно печнежских/ союзников в бытву под Киеве. Опустошили землю рутенов и осадили Киева. Когда начали ставить осадных лестници, осажденые начали переговоры. Условия договора включали взятие заложников, 10 000 марок дани, одежди, продоволствие, 1000 коней, 1000 половецких мальчиков и 40 верблюдов, а также много меха и другие дары.
От Кларенс
К Thorn (17.01.2011 00:41:42)
Дата 17.01.2011 18:43:02

Re: Это не...


> Gesta hungarorum

>Венгры разгромили рутенов /русских/ и их половецких /вероятно печнежских/ союзников в бытву под Киеве. Опустошили землю рутенов и осадили Киева. Когда начали ставить осадных лестници, осажденые начали переговоры. Условия договора включали взятие заложников, 10 000 марок дани, одежди, продоволствие, 1000 коней, 1000 половецких мальчиков и 40 верблюдов, а также много меха и другие дары.

насколько можно этому верить? и, господи, зачем им половецкие мальчики? и почему именно половецкие?
От Паршев
К Кларенс (17.01.2011 18:43:02)
Дата 18.01.2011 13:34:44

Re: Это не...


>
>насколько можно этому верить? и, господи, зачем им половецкие мальчики? и почему именно половецкие?

Какой же Вы всё-таки чистый
От Thorn
К Кларенс (17.01.2011 18:43:02)
Дата 18.01.2011 01:35:30

Re: Это не...


>> Gesta hungarorum
>
>>Венгры разгромили рутенов /русских/ и их половецких /вероятно печнежских/ союзников в бытву под Киеве. Опустошили землю рутенов и осадили Киева. Когда начали ставить осадных лестници, осажденые начали переговоры. Условия договора включали взятие заложников, 10 000 марок дани, одежди, продоволствие, 1000 коней, 1000 половецких мальчиков и 40 верблюдов, а также много меха и другие дары.
>
>насколько можно этому верить? и, господи, зачем им половецкие мальчики? и почему именно половецкие?


100, а не 1000 мальчиков. Опечатка в издания, которым ползовался.
От Сибиряк
К Кларенс (17.01.2011 18:43:02)
Дата 17.01.2011 20:21:42

Re: Это не...

>> Условия договора включали взятие заложников, 10 000 марок дани, одежди, продоволствие, 1000 коней, 1000 половецких мальчиков и 40 верблюдов, а также много меха и другие дары.
>
>насколько можно этому верить? и, господи, зачем им половецкие мальчики? и почему именно половецкие?

половецкие мальчики - это гулямы, из которых через несколько лет вырастут неплохие воины. Так что 1000 коней + 1000 мальчиков - это тысяча конных воинов в очень недалекой перспективе.
От Presscenter
К Сибиряк (17.01.2011 20:21:42)
Дата 17.01.2011 20:38:16

Re: Это не...

>половецкие мальчики - это гулямы, из которых через несколько лет вырастут неплохие воины. Так что 1000 коней + 1000 мальчиков - это тысяча конных воинов в очень недалекой перспективе.

У мадьяров были гулямы? К тому же 1000 коней для Киева в то время - это в общем-то дохрена, учитывая, что выплата откупа не в рассрочку, а единомоментно.
От Thorn
К Thorn (17.01.2011 00:41:42)
Дата 17.01.2011 00:45:53

Re: Это не...


http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/18975/1/18975.pdf

8. Of Ruthenia
Arriving in the lands of the Russians, they reached the city of Kiev [Kyeu] without
any opposition and, as they passed through the city of Kiev, crossing the river Dnieper
[Deneper], they sought to conquer the realm of the Ruthenes [Rutenorum]. Then the
dukes of the Ruthenes, learning of this, feared greatly because they had heard that
Duke Álmos, son of Vgek, was of the line of King Attila, to whom their forefathers
had every year paid tribute. Nevertheless, the duke of Kiev [Hyeu] and all the leaders,
having gathered and taken counsel among themselves, decided that they should do
battle with Duke Álmos and that they preferred to die in war than to forfeit their own
realms and be subjected against their will to Duke Álmos. Forthwith, the duke of
13
Kiev, despatching envoys, asked the seven dukes of the Cumans, his most faithful
friends, for help. Then these seven dukes, whose names were these— Ed, Edum, Etu,
Bunger, Ousad, father of Ursuur, Boyta, and Ketel, father of Oluptulma—
accompanied by no small host of horsemen, came most speedily against Duke Álmos
for the sake of the duke of Kiev’s friendship. And the duke of Kiev with his army
advanced against them and supported by the Cumans began to oppose Duke Álmos
with an armed host. But Duke Álmos, whose help was the Holy Spirit, attired with
arms, his battle-line ordered, went mounted on his horse here and there encouraging
his warriors and, as the attack commenced, he stood before all his men and said: O,
Scythians, my fellow warriors and most brave men, be mindful of the start of your
wanderings when you said that such land as you could inhabit you would take by arms
and war. Do not therefore be troubled by the host of Ruthenes and Cumans, who are
as our dogs. For do not dogs, when they hear the words of their masters, start to
tremble? Because strength does not rest in the numbers of a people but in resolution of
the spirit. Do you not know, as the philosopher says, that a single lion may put to
flight many deer?39 But in short I say to you: who can stand against the warriors of
Scythia? Did not the Scythians put to flight Darius, king of the Persians, and so in fear
and the greatest disgrace he fled to Persia and lost there 80,000 men? And did not the
Scythians destroy Cyrus, king of the Persians, with 330,000 men. And did not the
Scythians put to base flight even Alexander the Great, son of King Philip and Queen
Olympias, who had conquered many kingdoms. So let us fight bravely and
courageously those who are as our dogs and let us fear their host as a swarm of flies.
Hearing this, the warriors of Duke Álmos were much encouraged and they at once
sounded on all sides the trumpets of war, and both lines of foes came together and
they began to fight each other fiercely, and many Ruthenes and Cumans were slain.
14
The aforesaid dukes of the Ruthenes and Cumans, seeing that they were losing the
battle, turned in flight and, hastening to save their lives, entered the city of Kiev. Duke
Álmos and his warriors pursued the Ruthenes and Cumans up to the city of Kiev and
the warriors of Duke Álmos broke the shaven heads of the Cumans as if fresh
gourds.40 The dukes of the Ruthenes and Cumans, having entered the city, seeing the
bravery of the Scythians, stayed there dumbly.
9. Of the peace between the duke and the Ruthenes
With victory won, Duke Álmos and his warriors conquered the lands of the Ruthenes
and, seizing their goods, began in the second week to invest the city of Kiev. And
when they began to place their ladders on the wall, the dukes of the Cumans and
Ruthenes, seeing the bravery of the Scythians, feared greatly. And when they realized
that they could not resist them, the duke of Kiev and the other dukes of the Ruthenes
and of the Cumans who were there, having despatched envoys, asked Duke Álmos
and his leading men to make peace with them. When the envoys came to Duke Álmos
and asked him that their masters be not expelled from their homes, Duke Álmos,
having taken counsel with his men, answered the envoys of the Ruthenes that the
dukes and their chief men should give their sons as hostages, and that they should pay
every year a tribute of 10,000 marks and, in addition, food, clothes and other
necessities. The dukes of the Ruthenes, albeit unwillingly, nevertheless conceded all
these things to Duke Álmos, but they told Duke Álmos that, after leaving the land of
Galicia,41 they should descend westward beyond the Havas [Houos] wood into the
land of Pannonia, that had previously been the land of King Attila, and they
recommended to them the land of Pannonia as being good beyond measure. For they
said that there flowed the most noble spring waters, the Danube and Tisza [Tyscia]
15
and other most noble springs, abounding in good fish, in which land there lived the
Slavs [Sclavi], Bulgarians [Bulgarii] and Vlachs [Blachii], and the shepherds of the
Romans [pastores Romanorum].42 For after the death of King Attila, the Romans said
the land of Pannonia was pastureland because their flocks grazed in the land of
Pannonia. And rightly is the land of Pannonia said to be the pastureland of the
Romans, for now too the Romans graze on the goods of Hungary.43 What more?
10. Of the seven dukes of the Cumans
Duke Álmos and his chief men, taking counsel among themselves, agreed to the
request of the dukes of the Ruthenes and made peace with them. Then the dukes of the
Ruthenes, namely of Kiev and Suzdal, lest they be expelled from their homes, gave
their sons as hostages to Duke Álmos and sent with them 10,000 marks and a
thousand horses with saddles and bridles decorated in Ruthene fashion, and a hundred
Cuman boys and forty camels for carrying loads, numberless pelts of ermine
[ermelinas] and mink [griseas] and many other gifts beyond count.