От Гриша
К Mike
Дата 06.09.2011 23:24:26
Рубрики Современность; Флот; Евреи и Израиль;

"Ты виноват лиш тем, что xочется мне кушать." (с)

>Чуствую. ;) Никто с территории Турции на Израиль не нападал и вернуть незаконно оккупированную Хайфу не требует.
И на Турцию с территории Израилья не нападали, и вернуть незаконно окупированный Константинопль не требует.

>А извинения перед Египтом, тем не менее, были.
Потому что с Египтом была ошибка, а турками ошибок не было.
От Mike
К Гриша (06.09.2011 23:24:26)
Дата 06.09.2011 23:30:11

отчет комиссии Палмера хоть читали?

или Вам и так всё ясно?

>>А извинения перед Египтом, тем не менее, были.
>Потому что с Египтом была ошибка, а турками ошибок не было.

Two passengers were killed by shots from the helicopters before the first soldiers had boarded the vessel.66 The Captain immediately changed the vessel’s course to the open sea on a bearing of 270., but Israeli naval frigates approached the vessel from the starboard bow and forced the convoy to turn back towards Israeli waters.67 Passengers on board the Mavi Marmara panicked and acted in self-defence to prevent the IDF personnel from boarding the vessel.

33.
The Turkish Commission concludes that IDF personnel used excessive force both before and after boarding.69 There was indiscriminate shooting, including from the helicopters. There were also targeted attacks on individuals who did not represent a threat to IDF personnel, including injured.

там еще много интересного, причём не в пользу Израиля

С уважением, Mike.
От Palmach
К Mike (06.09.2011 23:30:11)
Дата 06.09.2011 23:47:09

Ре: отчет комиссии...

Да, читать первоисточник полезно. Ибо читавшим ясно видно, что в докладе приводятся выводы как турецкой, так и израильской комиссий по етому вопросу.

Ваша цитата из заключения турецкой комиссии, и подтверждения в выводах комиссии ООН не получила.
От Mike
К Palmach (06.09.2011 23:47:09)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:27:06

Ре: отчет комиссии...

>Да, читать первоисточник полезно. Ибо читавшим ясно видно, что в докладе приводятся выводы как турецкой, так и израильской комиссий по етому вопросу.

>Ваша цитата из заключения турецкой комиссии, и подтверждения в выводах комиссии ООН не получила.

да
Some of the witness accounts appended to the Turkish report say that two passengers on board were killed by shots from the first helicopter prior to the actual boarding taking place,432 although by no means all the witnesses say this. On the material before it, the Panel cannot conclude whether the deaths occurred in this way.

127.
The material before the Panel does not contest the fact that nine passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara. However, despite the investigation and conclusions reached in Israel’s report, no satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel for how the individual deaths occurred.


С уважением, Mike.
От Гриша
К Mike (07.09.2011 00:27:06)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:28:24

Так если "cannot conclude" то зачем это цитировать? (-)
От Mike
К Гриша (07.09.2011 00:28:24)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:34:22

потому что заявления есть, а опровержения нет. (-)
От Mich
К Mike (07.09.2011 00:34:22)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:38:02

Это турецкие заявления

с израильской стороны есть заявление, что с вертолетов при высадке огонь не велся. И этому тоже турецких опровержений нет.

От Гриша
К Mike (07.09.2011 00:34:22)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:37:32

Если заявления достоверные, а опровержения нет, то были бы выводы. А иx нет (-)
От Mike
К Гриша (07.09.2011 00:37:32)
Дата 07.09.2011 01:15:24

комиссия не смогла сделать вывод

поскольку аппаратура правозащитников была изъята израильской стороной, которая, в свою очередь, предоставила комиссии нечто невнятное.

Боюсь, обычный уголовный суд отнесся бы к победившей и зачиствишей свидетельства стороне более сурово.

С уважением, Mike.
От Palmach
К Mike (07.09.2011 01:15:24)
Дата 07.09.2011 01:30:22

Ре: комиссия не...

>поскольку аппаратура правозащитников была изъята израильской стороной, которая, в свою очередь, предоставила комиссии нечто невнятное.

Комиссия признала а) легальность морской блокады б) право израиля на применение силы для потдержания блокады в) факт нападения пассажиров на израильских солдат находившихся при исполнении г) нанесение тяжёлых телесных + взятие в заложники сотрудников силовых органов находившихся при исполнении д) сговор о нападении.

>Боюсь, обычный уголовный суд отнесся бы к победившей и зачиствишей свидетельства стороне более сурово.

Да нет - максимум привышение силы при самообороне, да и то, как посмотреть.
От Mich
К Mike (06.09.2011 23:30:11)
Дата 06.09.2011 23:37:20

Ну дык это Turkish Comission report

>там еще много интересного, причём не в пользу Израиля
Чего удивительного
С уважением
От Mike
К Mich (06.09.2011 23:37:20)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:13:00

Re: Ну дык...

>>там еще много интересного, причём не в пользу Израиля
>Чего удивительного

А ничего удивительного

Five of those killed had bullet wounds indicating they had been shot from behind: Cengiz Akyьz,416 Зetin Topзuoрlu,417 Necdet Yэldэrэm,418 Furkan Doрan419 and Эbrahim Bilgen.420 This last group included three with bullet wounds to the back of the head: Cengiz Akyьz,421 Зetin Topзuoрlu422 and Furkan Doрan.423 Эbrahim Bilgen was killed by a shot to the right temple.

At least one of those killed, Furkan Doрan, was shot at extremely close range.427 Mr. Doрan sustained wounds to the face, back of the skull, back and left leg. That suggests he may already have been lying wounded when the fatal shot was delivered, as suggested by witness accounts to that effect.

134.
The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces. No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any of the nine deaths. Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.

139.
Many passengers were subjected to overly tight handcuffing for extended periods while on the vessels, including of people who were injured.446 Passengers in many instances were also denied bathroom access,447 access to medication,448 and were given only limited access to food and drink449 during the period when the vessels were being taken to the port at Ashdod. Large numbers of passengers were left on the deck of the Mavi Marmara and other vessels for a period of several hours, exposed to the elements.450 Many passengers also allege that they were subjected to physical and verbal harassment throughout including pushing, shoving and kicking and other physical intimidation.451 The mistreatment was not restricted to those individuals that could be considered to have represented a direct threat to the IDF or other personnel.452 The Panel notes that the Israeli report does not address any of these matters in great detail.453 To a degree its conclusions are not inconsistent with some of the descriptions offered by the witness accounts.

The Panel notes that the IDF military police have initiated seven criminal investigations into specific incidents of theft of property, but considers that the problems relating to the seizure of belongings were more widespread.

С уважением, Mike.
От Palmach
К Mike (07.09.2011 00:13:00)
Дата 07.09.2011 01:03:40

Re: Ну дык...

104. We have made it clear that we consider that Israel was entitled to impose the
naval blockade. It follows that Israel was also entitled to enforce it. The manner of its
enforcement, however, raises serious issues of concern.

108. On the best view we can form of the matter we believe it was reasonable in the
circumstances for the Israeli Navy to conclude that the vessels of the flotilla intended to
proceed to Gaza. That is what they repeatedly said. That intention was consistent with
an intention to breach the blockade.

109. For Israel to maintain the blockade it had to be effective, so it must be enforced.
That is a clear legal requirement for a blockade.344 Such enforcement may take place on
the high seas and may be conducted by force if a vessel resists. To this point in the
analysis no difficulty arises. But the subsequent steps taken raise serious questions as to
whether the enforcement was executed appropriately in the circumstances.

124. The Panel accepts, therefore, that soldiers landing from the first helicopter faced
significant, organized and violent resistance from a group of passengers when they
descended onto the Mavi Marmara. Material before the Panel confirms that this group
was armed with iron bars, staves, chains, and slingshots, 388 and there is some indication
that they also used knives. 389 Firearms were taken from IDF personnel and passengers
disabled at least one by removing the ammunition from it. 390 Two soldiers received
gunshot wounds. 391 There is some reason to believe that they may have been shot by
passengers, 392 although the Panel is not able to conclusively establish how the gunshot
wounds were caused. Nevertheless, seven other soldiers were wounded by passengers,
some seriously. 393

125. Both reports concur that three soldiers were overpowered by the passengers as
they descended from the first helicopter and were taken below the deck of the vessel. 394
The Panel is not persuaded that claims that the three were taken below merely to receive
medical assistance 395 are plausible, although it accepts that once below deck other
passengers intervened to protect them and ensure that assistance was provided. 396 It is
established to the Panel’s satisfaction that the three soldiers in question were captured, mistreated and placed at risk during the incident. 397 In the face of such a response, the
IDF personnel involved in the operation needed to take action for their own protection
and that of the other soldiers.

33. Israeli Defense Forces personnel faced significant, organized and violent
resistance from a group of passengers when they boarded the Mavi Marmara requiring them to use force for their own protection. Three soldiers were captured,
mistreated, and placed at risk by those passengers. Several others were wounded.


А все остальное фигня на постном масле.
От Mike
К Palmach (07.09.2011 01:03:40)
Дата 07.09.2011 01:27:32

Re: Ну дык...

>А все остальное фигня на постном масле.

Комиссия так не полагает, причём антиизральского настроя у неё не было.

В общем, посокрушавшись, комиссия рекомендовала сторонам успокоиться и помириться

169.
The Panel recommends that:
. An appropriate statement of regret should be made by Israel in respect of the incident in light of its consequences.
.Israel should offer payment for the benefit of the deceased and injured victims and their families, to be administered by the two governments through a joint trust fund of a sufficient amount to be decided by them.
.Turkey and Israel should resume full diplomatic relations, repairing their relationship in the interests of stability in the Middle East and international peace and security. The establishment of a political roundtable as a forum for exchanging views could assist to this end.

а заодно и позаботиться о нуждах угнетенных обитателей Газы

Israel should continue with its efforts to ease its restrictions on movement of goods and persons to and from Gaza with a view to lifting its closure and to alleviate the unsustainable humanitarian and economic situation of the civilian population. These steps should be taken in accordance with Security Council resolution 1860, all aspects of which should be implemented.

С уважением, Mike.
От Palmach
К Mike (07.09.2011 01:27:32)
Дата 07.09.2011 01:32:38

Ре: Ну дык...

>Комиссия так не полагает, причём антиизральского настроя у неё не было.

А что ей оставалось сакзать, если "Turkey and Israel should resume full diplomatic relations, repairing their relationship in the interests of stability in the Middle East and international peace and security. The establishment of a political roundtable as a forum for exchanging views could assist to this end." ?

>В общем, посокрушавшись, комиссия рекомендовала сторонам успокоиться и помириться

Ну вот Израиль с рекомедациями согласился. А Истамбул недоволен.
От Mich
К Mike (07.09.2011 00:13:00)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:28:05

Не понимаю смысла цитат

>А ничего удивительного
Что эти показания доказывают или опровергают ?

С уважением
От Гриша
К Mike (07.09.2011 00:13:00)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:19:46

Ре: Ну дык...

>>>там еще много интересного, причём не в пользу Израиля
>>Чего удивительного
>
>А ничего удивительного

><б>Фиве оф тхосе киллед хад буллет воундс индицатинг тхеы хад беен шот фром бехинд: Ценгиз Акыьз,416 Зетин Топзуорлу,417 Нецдет Ыэлдэрэм,418 Фуркан Доран419 анд Эбрахим Билген.420 Тхис ласт гроуп инцлудед тхрее витх <б>буллет воундс то тхе бацк оф тхе хеад: Ценгиз Акыьз,421 Зетин Топзуорлу422 анд Фуркан Доран.423 Эбрахим Билген вас киллед бы а шот то тхе ригхт темпле.

А что в этом плоxого? Если турк А нападает на израильского солдата Б, израильский солдат В не должен в него стрелять потому что он наxодится сзади от А?
От Mike
К Гриша (07.09.2011 00:19:46)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:32:12

Ре: Ну дык...


>А что в этом плоxого? Если турк А нападает на израильского солдата Б, израильский солдат В не должен в него стрелять потому что он наxодится сзади от А?

А комиссия не понимает:
134.
The loss of life and injuries resulting from the use of force by Israeli forces during the take-over of the Mavi Marmara was unacceptable. Nine passengers were killed and many others seriously wounded by Israeli forces. No satisfactory explanation has been provided to the Panel by Israel for any of the nine deaths. Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not been adequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel.

С уважением, Mike.
От Гриша
К Mike (07.09.2011 00:32:12)
Дата 07.09.2011 00:39:18

Это личные проблемы комиссии. (-)
От Гриша
К Mike (06.09.2011 23:30:11)
Дата 06.09.2011 23:37:13

Ну и что - "комисся Палмера" прямиком от святого дуxа исxодит?

Я сам могу написать ерунду всякую- например: "С "Мави Мармара" по израильским вертолетам был открыт огонь из крупнокалиберныx пулеметов." :)))
От Гриша
К Гриша (06.09.2011 23:37:13)
Дата 06.09.2011 23:38:23

А если серьезней - данные сообщения опираются на доклады самиx турков.

>Я сам могу написать ерунду всякую- например: "С "Мави Мармара" по израильским вертолетам был открыт огонь из крупнокалиберныx пулеметов." :)))

На видео ничего подобного не видно.