От Skvortsov
К Андю
Дата 24.04.2019 13:56:21
Рубрики 11-19 век; Армия;

Ре: Ужели?

>Здравствуйте,

>>И кто из историков оспаривает выдачу знамени?
>
>Проще спросить, кто именно из историков на него вообще фапает. Не крестовый поход чай.

Да вот тут не подвергают сомнению

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anglo-Saxons-James-Campbell/dp/0140143955/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1N6RYNXJCZ68D&keywords=james+campbell+anglo+saxons&qid=1556058129&s=gateway&sprefix=james+campbell+%2Caps%2C222&sr=8-1



>Он вполне здраво напомнил, что их там вполне себе погибло, т.к. Фулфорд был выигран (напоминаю) норвежцами, а Йорк, второй после Лондона город Англии, -- взят ими.

Йорк никто не брал. В город отступил отряд эрла Эдвина.

From Heimskringla

Originally written in Old Norse, about 1225 by the poet and historian Snorri Sturluson. English translation by Samuel Laing (London, 1844).

"Earl Valthiof, (Edwin) and the people who escaped, fled up to the castle of York; and there the greatest loss of men had been. This battle took place upon the Wednesday next Mathias."

…………...
From Symeon of Durham quoted in 'Sources of York History to D 1100 Vol 1' by D W Rollason, published by York Archeological Trust.

"Thursday 20 September 1066 The Norwegian leader broke through the English resistance at the Battle of Fulford and advanced on York, where he negotiated with the citizens"

http://www.battleoffulford.org.uk/li_sagas_compared.htm


..............................

Англо-саксонские хроники

A:
"Then after the fight went Harold, King of Norway, and Earl Tosty into York with as many followers as they thought fit; and having procured hostages and provisions from the city, they proceeded to their ships, and proclaimed full friendship, on condition that all would go southward with them, and gain this land."

C:
"And then, after the fight, went Harald, King of Norway, and Tosty the earl, into York, with as much people as seemed meet to them. And they delivered hostages to them from the city, and also assisted them with provisions; and so they went thence to their ships, and they agreed upon a full peace, so that they should all go with him south, and this land subdue."



http://www.battleoffulford.org.uk/li_chronicles.htm



>Дальше я скипнул, извините, потому что ваши сведения не имеют никакого отношениоя к затронутому вопросу.

>Всего хорошего, Андрей.
От Андю
К Skvortsov (24.04.2019 13:56:21)
Дата 24.04.2019 15:00:10

Ре: Ужели?

Здравствуйте,

>>Проще спросить, кто именно из историков на него вообще фапает. Не крестовый поход чай.

>Да вот тут не подвергают сомнению

В книге про англо-саксонов? Хм. Жукоу вон тоже не сомневается.

>Йорк никто не брал. В город отступил отряд эрла Эдвина.

А я и не писал, что его осаждали и сожгли. Город сдался Хардраде и дал заложников.

Всего хорошего, Андрей.
От Skvortsov
К Андю (24.04.2019 15:00:10)
Дата 24.04.2019 16:03:44

Ре: Ужели?


>
>В книге про англо-саксонов? Хм. Жукоу вон тоже не сомневается.

Я правильно понял, что сомневаетесь только Вы?


>>>а Йорк, второй после Лондона город Англии, -- взят ими.
>>Йорк никто не брал. В город отступил отряд эрла Эдвина.
>
>А я и не писал, что его осаждали и сожгли. Город сдался Хардраде и дал заложников.


Город не был взят, город не сдавался, норвежцы в него не входили. Короче, ничего с Йорком не сделали.

Жители обещали присоединиться к норвежцам для похода на юг. Заложников дали как гарантию исполнения обещания. Вместо них (или с ними) пришел Гарольд. Норвежцы даже кольчуги одеть не успели.
От Андю
К Skvortsov (24.04.2019 16:03:44)
Дата 25.04.2019 17:28:17

Ре: Ужели?

Здравствуйте,

>Я правильно понял, что сомневаетесь только Вы?

Упаси Бог. Я даже историком не являюсь.

>>А я и не писал, что его осаждали и сожгли. Город сдался Хардраде и дал заложников.

>Город не был взят, город не сдавался, норвежцы в него не входили. Короче, ничего с Йорком не сделали.

И после этого вы утверждаете, что забываю русский именно я? Хм. Повторю ещё раз, если не прошло с 1-го раза: город сдался захватчикам, дав заложников и согласившись снабдить их продовольствием.

Остальную реконструкцию, основанную на паре текстов и буйной фантазии ("не успели надеть", ага) я скипнул, т.б. что к теме, затронутой в заголовке, это не имеет ни малейшего отношения.

Всего хорошего, Андрей.
От Skvortsov
К Андю (25.04.2019 17:28:17)
Дата 26.04.2019 04:18:19

Ну вот вам выдержки из The Forgotten Battle of 1066 Fulford


>И после этого вы утверждаете, что забываю русский именно я? Хм. Повторю ещё раз, если не прошло с 1-го раза: город сдался захватчикам, дав заложников и согласившись снабдить их продовольствием.

Еще раз:

Норвежцы в городскую крепость не входили. Заложников только пообещали выдать.

Harald agreed that 150 hostages would be exchanged between the victor and the vanquished. They had the customary few days to deliver the hostages. Monday was the day agreed.


Earl Edwin realised that he had to stay in York. If he did not agree to submit, the Mercians would be the next target for the invaders and York would pay a high price. To do anything other than to encourage the populace to agree to the lenient terms being offered by Harald and Tostig would alert the Norsemen. It was agreed that 150 ‘sons of the leading men’ of Northumbria would be given as hostages, while the same number would be given by the Norwegians in exchange.

И английского короля известили о предстоящей встрече:
Somewhere along the route, the much-travelled messenger returned with the news of the defeat at Fulford and the plans for the submission on the Sunday.

So that on Sunday the king proceeded with the whole army to the castle, and appointed a Thing of the people without the castle, at which the people of the castle were to be present. At this Thing all the people accepted the condition of submitting to Harald, and gave him, as hostages, the children of the most considerable persons; for Earl Toste was well acquainted with all the people of that town.

И в крепость пообещали впустить в понедельник, после обмена заложниками.

Another meeting was apparently arranged ‘within the castle early on Monday morning, and then King Harald was to name officers to rule over the town, to give out laws, and bestow fiefs’.

On Monday, when King Harald Sigurdson had taken breakfast, he ordered the trumpets to sound for going on shore.
The weather was uncommonly fine, and it was hot sunshine. The men therefore laid aside their armour, and went on the land only with their shields, helmets and spears, and girt with swords; and many had also arrows and bows, and all were very merry.

If we accept these figures and the casualty rates discussed earlier, King Harald set out with something short of 3,000 lightly armoured men, some carrying wounds from Wednesday’s battle and all suffering from the feast the night before.

Perhaps Stamford Bridge was not the destination. There was a significant junction of roads some miles north of Stamford Bridge itself. This might have been the location nominated to complete the formalities of submission and the exchange of hostages.

The invaders evidently had no plan for a fight. The chroniclers agree that it was a warm September. Because the days were hot, and combat was not expected, the men left most armour and weapons behind at Riccall.


While the invaders were making their way north-east, the English army was in fact heading due east on a collision course. Their route from Tadcaster was about the same distance.

There might have been nothing alarming about the sight of many men on horseback on the adjacent ridge heading in roughly their direction. They had, after all, been summoned to submit to King Harald and their restored earl.

The sources suggest that perhaps 90 per cent of the invaders were killed. The high casualty rate perhaps demonstrates the effectiveness of the armour that the Norsemen were not wearing, and the advantages of fighting on horseback.


The Forgotten Battle of 1066


ABOUT THE AUTHOR Charles Jones helped set up and has led the Lottery-funded Fulford Battlefield Society. With help from leading archaeologists, the society has spent five years investigating the location of the battle. He studied science at Cambridge University and spent over twenty years in the Territorial Army, which have both proved useful during this innovative investigation. He is now working to preserve the battlesite from encroaching housing development. He lives in Oxford.

https://www.amazon.com/Fulford-Charles-Jones/dp/0752443267/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1556236410&sr=1-1-catcorr

От Андю
К Skvortsov (26.04.2019 04:18:19)
Дата 26.04.2019 08:16:13

Т.е. автор никто и звать его никак. (+)

Здравствуйте,

>Норвежцы в городскую крепость не входили. Заложников только пообещали выдать.

Это не ещё раз, это впервые. Раз. Два: город и городская крепость/замок -- это не одно и тоже. Ещё раз: город сдался и дал заложников. А легитимный король Англии Гаральд пришёл на помощь потерпевшим поражение "северянам", с которыми он был связан ещё и родственными узами, и одержал победу.

И дальше я опять скипнул, как совершенно неотносящееся в обсуждаемой теме. Ещё раз.

Всего хорошего, Андрей.
От Skvortsov
К Андю (26.04.2019 08:16:13)
Дата 26.04.2019 15:43:23

Вы же написали, что даже историком не являетесь. Как Вы можете оценить автора?


>>Норвежцы в городскую крепость не входили. Заложников только пообещали выдать.
>
>Это не ещё раз, это впервые. Раз. Два: город и городская крепость/замок -- это не одно и тоже. Ещё раз: город сдался и дал заложников.
Вы периоды путаете. Викинги весь Йорк обнесли стенами. Им было нужно защитить все население. Замок построили уже при Вильгельме. Ему надо было контролировать горожан.


Ну и кроме процитированного выше "Heimskringla or The Chronicle of the Kings of Norway by Snorri Sturlson (c.1179-1241) Samuel Laing (London, 1844), translator."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/heim/10harald.htm

есть более свежий перевод

Цитата отсюда:

https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Stamford-Bridge-Holtby-ebook/dp/B07HWQVBN4/ref=sr_1_2?qid=1556280479&refinements=p_27%3AJonathan+Starkey&s=digital-text&sr=1-2&text=Jonathan+Starkey



"Note that English Heritage are using the A.H. Binns 1968 Heimskringla translation.

"The townsfolk decided to send an offer to Harald, yielding themselves and the town to him, and on the Sunday King Harald went with his troop and all the army to York, and had a meeting outside the town, and all the great men agreed to submit to King Harald and gave him hostages, rich men's sons whom Tostig could pick out for the king, because he knew who were the worthiest men in the town. They went back in the evening to the ships with an undisputed success and were contented. It was decided that there should be a meeting in the morning in the town, when King Harald was to appoint governors of the place and give them offices and areas."


MB: Heimskringla says that on Sunday: “It was decided that there should be a meeting in the morning in the town”. Then on Monday: “They were very happy, with no thought of any attack, and when they were getting near the town they saw a great cloud of dust and under it bright shields and shining mail.” We are told that ‘city’ is a better translation; Laing translates as ‘castle’. It clearly refers to York, which is the only city or town or castle in the vicinity."

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says that Harold and the English army spent the night before battle at Tadcaster; Heimskringla says they were at York:

"The same evening, after sunset, King Harald Godwinson came from the south to the castle with a numerous army, and rode into the city with the good-will and consent of the people of the castle. All the gates and walls were beset so that the Northmen could receive no intelligence, and the army remained all night in the town."

On the other hand, the passage in Heimskringla would be an odd invention and we think Harold did go in person to York castle on battle-eve. He would have wanted to ensure that there were no Norsemen inside, that his army would be well-received and that the defeated Northumbrian militia would join him. It looks then that most of the Heimskringla passage is sound. Harold did come from the south with a numerous army. They were quite close (nine miles from Tadcaster to York) to the castle. We think Harold did ride into the city and that the city was guarded to prevent intelligence getting out. We cannot explain why Heimskringla says: “the army remained all night in the town”. Perhaps it is just a mistake or perhaps it is trying to say that Harold’s professional army – i.e. his huscarls – stayed in the town all night."







От Андю
К Skvortsov (26.04.2019 15:43:23)
Дата 26.04.2019 18:18:38

Вы -- забавный. :-) (-)
От Skvortsov
К Андю (26.04.2019 18:18:38)
Дата 26.04.2019 18:58:38

Можно вывести девушку из деревни, а вот деревню из девушки никогда - это про Вас (-)
От sas
К Skvortsov (26.04.2019 18:58:38)
Дата 27.04.2019 13:15:09

Re:Кстати, о вечном. А Вы - историк? (-)