От Skvortsov
К Evg
Дата 16.12.2020 18:53:32
Рубрики 11-19 век; Флот;

Re: "a line...

>>Вас интересовало значение слова внутри словосочетания.
>
>Ну так и какое значение этого слова внутри словосочетания? Мне до сих пор интересно.

>>Вы почему-то тему разговора поменяли.
>
>Потому что на прямой как палка вопрос мой оппонент начал менять тему.
>Или значение слова "man" в термине "Man-of-war" и значение слова "Sail" в термине "Sail of the Line" как то связано с понятием "battleship".

Не менял я тему. Значение термина "Sail", как отдельного термина, так и в терминах "Sail of the Line" и "Sail of Ships of War" отличается от значения общеупотребительного слова sail.
Я уже давал ссылку на письма Нельсона.

Victory, off Cadiz, 9th October, 1805.
Memorandum.
Thinking it almost impossible to bring a Fleet of forty Sail of the Line into a Line of Battle in variable winds, thick weather, and other circumstances which must occur, without such a loss of time that the opportunity would probably be lost of bringing the Enemy to Battle in such a manner as to make the business decisive, I have therefore made up my mind to keep the Fleet in that position of sailing (with the exception of the First and Second in Command) that the Order of Sailing is to be the Order of Battle, placing the Fleet in two Lines of sixteen Ships each, with an Advanced Squadron of eight of the fastest sailing Two-decked Ships, which will always make, if wanted, a Line of twenty-four Sail, on whichever Line the Commander-in-Chief may direct.


October 20th. In the morning, we were close to the Mouth of the Straits, but the wind had not come far enough to the Westward to allow the Combined Fleets to weather the Shoals off Trafalgar; but they were counted as far as forty Sail of Ships of War, which I suppose to be thirty-four of the Line, and six Frigates.


>Вы попытались определить значение слова через словосочетание содержащее определяемое слово. Это логически не верно.

Я ничего не пытался определять. Не я термины придумал. Я просто знаю, что в британском флоте термин "a line of battleship" и его короткий вариант "Ballteship" означают всегда линейный корабль. Другого значения этот термин в британском флоте не имел.

А история и логика возникновения термина меня особо не интересует. И неправильно термин считать обыкновенным словосочетанием или словом.
От sas
К Skvortsov (16.12.2020 18:53:32)
Дата 16.12.2020 19:36:45

Re: "a line...


>Я ничего не пытался определять. Не я термины придумал. Я просто знаю, что в британском флоте термин "a line of battleship" и его короткий вариант "Ballteship" означают всегда линейный корабль. Другого значения этот термин в британском флоте не имел.
Хм, а можно цитату из британского флотского с таким употреблением данного словосочетания? И да, чтобы сразу определиться. "Sail of the Line" в качестве примера приводить не надо. Надо именно "a line of battleship" в значении "линейный корабль".






От Skvortsov
К sas (16.12.2020 19:36:45)
Дата 17.12.2020 00:38:16

Re: "a line...


>>Я ничего не пытался определять. Не я термины придумал. Я просто знаю, что в британском флоте термин "a line of battleship" и его короткий вариант "Ballteship" означают всегда линейный корабль. Другого значения этот термин в британском флоте не имел.
>Хм, а можно цитату из британского флотского с таким употреблением данного словосочетания? И да, чтобы сразу определиться. "Sail of the Line" в качестве примера приводить не надо. Надо именно "a line of battleship" в значении "линейный корабль".

The Mariner's Mirror
1933

ACRE 1840
[We are indebted to Admiral Mark Kerr for permission to publish the following letter, written by his father, Lieutenant (afterwards Admiral) Lord Frederic Herbert Kerr, to his elder brother.]

H.M. Steam Frigate Gorgon,
October 26th, 1840.

My dear Henry,

I wrote to Lothian acquainting him upon Robert Stopford's kindness in promoting me into a death vacancy in the above named vessel-much to my surprise.
………….
This evening the fleet hove in sight, and anchored about sunset under Mount Carmel. There were seven English line-of-battleships, with Sir Robert Stopford's flag and Commodore Napier's broad pendant flying on board the Pri11cess Charlotte and Powerful, and five frigates and sloops. The Austrian squadron consisted of two frigates and a
corvette, and the Turkish of one line-of-battleship, with the flag of Admiral
Walker1, who is a Captain in our service, and a very fine fellow indeed. The plan
of attack was all arranged, and the steamers were to tow the ships in if there was no
wind.

////////////////////

The Mariner's Mirror
1948

NOTES

WAPPEN YON HAMBURG
In his interesting article on the Wappen von Hamburg in the July I948 number of The Mariner's Mirror, Mr R. C. Anderson alluded in some detail to a model of a ship bearing that name in the R.U.S. Museum. In our archives, I have found an entry dated I4-March I846, that Captain Sir John Marshall, R.N .. wished to present to the Institution' A large model of a two-decked ship belonging to the Hanseatic League in I650. The model is now at Chatham Dockyard and in need of some refitting.' The Secretary was directed to 'make application to the Board of Admiralty, requesting Their Lordships to allow the Officer of the Dockyard to put the model in repair before it is sent here'. In a letter from the Admiralty dated 2 March 1846, the Council of the Institution
were informed that Their Lordships had 'ordered the model of the Line of Battleship (sic) of the Hanseatic League presented to the United Service Institution ... to be repaired at public expense at Chatham and forwarded to you when ready'.
In the light of Mr Anderson's investigations, there would seem little doubt that both Sir John Marshall and Their Lordships fell into error, Marshall in assigning to I650 the model of a ship of a much later period, the Admiralty in calling it a 'Line of Battleship'. There is a misprint in the R.U.S. Museum catalogue; according to the original records it was in 1814-, not 1804-, that Sir John Marshall secured the model. This seems most probable, as it was during 1814-that Sir John Marshall served with the Allied Forces in the operations to free Hamburg from the Napoleonic occupation.

E. ALTHAM

/////////////////

Royal United Services Institution Journal
1921

SECRETARY'S NOTES.

VII.-The Museum.


ADDITIONS.
(3468)
Model of H.M.S. ‘‘ Victory,” Lord Nelson’s Flag Ship in the Battle
of Trafalgar (scale 1-10th in. to foot). Launched in 1765. Three-
decked line of battleship of 1O1 guns. It was on the quarterdeck of
this vessel that Nelson received his mortal wound from a musket-ball
fired from the mizzen-top of the French ship ‘‘ Redoutable.”
Length, 186 It.; breadth, 52 ft. 4 in.; 2,164 tons; 1 0 1 guns, heaviest
gun 4z-pounder; carried a crew of 850 men. The “ Victory ” is
still afloat in Portsmouth Harbour.-Deposited by Rear-Admiral
Sir John I:. E. Green, K.C.M.G., C.B.
////////////////////////////////////////////////

Royal United Services Institution Journal

November, 1952

NAVAL OPERATIONS ON THE COAST OF SYRIA, 1840
By COMMANDER W. B. ROWBOTHAM, R.N.

...…...
But when Napier went on board the flagship he found it had been decided, on
the recommendation of Captain Boxer that, as the sea breeze did not set in before
about noon, three of the steamers-the fourth was reserved for the Commander-in-
Chief himself-should each tow a line-of-battleship in to her bombarding station
opposite the West face of the fortress; they were then to return for the others.
Napier did not agree with this plan, on account of the time it would take, and he
expressed the opinion that if this were done the attacking force would probably be
defeated in detail. He was, however, overruled.
……..
От sas
К Skvortsov (17.12.2020 00:38:16)
Дата 17.12.2020 16:06:09

Ok (-)