От Кот Базилио
К All
Дата 27.09.2002 13:58:14
Рубрики Современность; Политек;

Украина опровергла обвинения США в тайной продаже оружия Ираку

Котское приветствие!
Министр иностранных дел Украины опроверг все обвинения в продаже Ираку системы ПВО, выдвинутые США, и призвал инспекторов ООН или США провести расследование этих обвинений. Глава МИД Анатолий Зленко встретился в Нью-Йорке с Генеральным секретарем ООН Кофи Аннаном, а также с главой Комитета ООН по санкциям. Зленко планирует также провести встречи с послами всех стран - постоянных членов Совета Безопасности - России, США, Великобритании, Франции и Китая.
"Все эти обвинения абсолютно беспочвенны, - заявил журналистам украинский министр перед встречей с Кофи Аннаном. - Мы прозрачны, открыты и готовы к расследованию. Мы приглашаем экспертов ООН провести расследование в нашей стране. Если США настаивают на необходимости отправки собственных экспертов - нет проблем", - подчеркнул министр.

Напомним, ранее государственный департамент США официально объявил, что располагает аудиозаписями переговоров, на которых президент Украины Леонид Кучма одобряет тайную продажу Ираку комплекса пассивной электронной разведки "Кольчуга".
http://top.rbc.ru/index.shtml?/news/daythemes/2002/09/27/27091321_bod.shtml
С уважением, Кот Базилио >(^ ^)< www.ventura.ru
От MMM
К Кот Базилио (27.09.2002 13:58:14)
Дата 29.09.2002 12:53:34

Так аудиозаписи или всё-таки продал?


>Напомним, ранее государственный департамент США официально объявил, что располагает аудиозаписями переговоров, на которых президент Украины Леонид Кучма одобряет тайную продажу Ираку комплекса пассивной электронной разведки "Кольчуга".
> http://top.rbc.ru/index.shtml?/news/daythemes/2002/09/27/27091321_bod.shtml

Так аудиозаписи или всё-таки продал? Поточнее, пожалуйтса...
От Marat
К MMM (29.09.2002 12:53:34)
Дата 30.09.2002 12:40:26

так в этом и проблемы

Здравствуйте!

>>Напомним, ранее государственный департамент США официально объявил, что располагает аудиозаписями переговоров, на которых президент Украины Леонид Кучма одобряет тайную продажу Ираку комплекса пассивной электронной разведки "Кольчуга".
>> http://top.rbc.ru/index.shtml?/news/daythemes/2002/09/27/27091321_bod.shtml
>
>Так аудиозаписи или всё-таки продал? Поточнее, пожалуйтса...

что с юридической точки зрения необходимо, что-нибудь существенное "де факто": официальные документы укр. стороны (контракт, накладные, расходники и пр. бухгактерия :) или же иракской
С оными проблема - вот поэтому когда с доказательной базой туговато, то активность ПиАркомпани и растет и нужно "расследование" - когда с фактами все будет лучше, все тихо затухнет и в прессе будет тишина...

C уважением, Марат
От Сергей Попов
К Кот Базилио (27.09.2002 13:58:14)
Дата 27.09.2002 14:04:54

Re: Украина опровергла...

>"Все эти обвинения абсолютно беспочвенны, - заявил журналистам украинский министр перед встречей с Кофи Аннаном. - Мы прозрачны, открыты и готовы к расследованию.
Нет, лучше так:
Мы сняли штаны, нагнулись, раздвинули ягодицы и готовы к... расследованию.

С уважением.
От Marat
К Сергей Попов (27.09.2002 14:04:54)
Дата 27.09.2002 15:46:11

да ладно вам...

Здравствуйте!

Просто американцы "в предверии войнушки с Ираком" и ведут масс-медийную компанию - за последние две недели количество статей об Ираке резко увеличилось - увеличилось и количество сообщений о военно-техническом сотрудн. Ирака - про Украину, Беларусь, Иран, Боснию и др. и даже французские и германские следы засветились - все статьи в двух ключах - упоминаемые страны обвиняются в поставках или же представители оных стран категорически отрицают поставки :))

>>"Все эти обвинения абсолютно беспочвенны, - заявил журналистам украинский министр перед встречей с Кофи Аннаном. - Мы прозрачны, открыты и готовы к расследованию.

>Нет, лучше так:
>Мы сняли штаны, нагнулись, раздвинули ягодицы и готовы к... расследованию.

в таком ключе позиции всех упомянутых стран лучше будут звучать так:
я не я - корова не моя :))

C уважением, Марат
От Marat
К Marat (27.09.2002 15:46:11)
Дата 30.09.2002 13:13:42

Испания тоже отписывается :)

Здравствуйте!

>Просто американцы "в предверии войнушки с Ираком" и ведут масс-медийную компанию - за последние две недели количество статей об Ираке резко увеличилось - увеличилось и количество сообщений о военно-техническом сотрудн. Ирака - про Украину, Беларусь, Иран, Боснию и др. и даже французские и германские следы засветились - все статьи в двух ключах - упоминаемые страны обвиняются в поставках или же представители оных стран категорически отрицают поставки :))

сабж собственно

"Ten Spanish companies rearmed Iraq"

Faci Penate, "El Tiempo" Madrid Weekly, 27 Sep 02

Some 10 Spanish companies exported ammunition, explosives, small arms and heavy materiel to Iraq to the value of around 30bn pesetas (180m euros). The business began with the UCD [Union of the Democratic Centre] governments [1976-82] and continued during the time of the Socialists, until the beginning of the 1990s. Many of these operations were carried out via third countries, such as Jordan and Greece.
The Spanish companies that sold the weapons and different types of materiel to [Iraqi leader] Saddam Hussayn's army were several companies from the ERT group -namely ERT, Expal, Explosivos de Burgos and Esperanza y Compania - as well as Casa, Enasa, Santa Barbara, Land Rover, International Technology and Trebelan. "In the 1980s and beginning of the 1990s, everyone sold to Iraq. They paid very well", says a
retired member of the [Spanish] armed forces who followed those deals.
The arms bound for Iraq in the 1980s, at the height of the war with Iran, usually arrived via third countries, such as Jordan and Greece, which appeared as the false recipients of the materiel. In response to the accusations from some international organizations, the Spanish companies argued that they could not control what happened after delivering the goods and if they were diverted to another destination.
It is calculated that in the 1980s more than 20,000 tonnes of explosives, ammunition and small arms were exported to Iraq, generating a revenue of some 20bn
pesetas (120m euros) at the time. If the sale of heavy materiel is added, arms exports to Iraq amounted to approximately 30bn pesetas (180m euros) at the prices of the day. These figures, which are not official, are taken from different reports, especially those of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI). It can be deduced from these same sources that even though Spain did business, it was
other countries, like Germany, Great Britain and France, that most contributed to Iraq's rearmament.
At the beginning of the 1980s, the Land Rover company exported 1,500 jeeps to Iraq. The then Communist deputy [in the Spanish Parliament] Enrique Curiel condemned the operation, which amounted to 2.4bn pesetas (more than 14m euros). The issue was
debated in the Congress [of Deputies], but the UCD government considered that it was not military materiel that should be subject to embargo.
The contacts for selling arms were first made in 1979 with a visit to Iraq by the then [Spanish] deputy prime minister, Gutierrez Mellado. Later it was the prime minister himself, Adolfo Suarez, who travelled to the country to look more deeply into the matter. Finally, in 1980 the volume of trade of the Spanish arms industry with Iraq was increased and several members the Iraqi armed forces visited Spain.
Curiously, during these visits the guests were usually taken to relax in the holiday resort of Maspalomas in the Canary Islands.

Heavy weapons

On into the 1980s, the sale of jeeps was followed by other shipments of explosives, ammunition and small arms. These arms arrived in Iraq via the port of
Aqaba in Jordan, a country that did not have an embargo.
There were also contracts for heavy weapons, like the 24 BO-105 helicopters that Casa sold to the Iraqi army. Vicenc Fisas includes this operation in his book "The weapons of democracy", where he explains how these machines, designed to carry out sanitary tasks, were customized and fitted with antitank missiles. The sale amounted to some 30m dollars at exchange rates of the time. The delivery of the helicopters concluded in 1984, with the Socialists were then in power. According to Vicenc Fisac, this same government later blocked another, much greater, order of helicopters.
Military sources question the idea that the Socialists blocked anything at the time:
"Iraq had its full support. It was the West's candidate because Israel's greatest enemy was Iran, and the West backed Iraq to the hilt".
The Iraqis were also interested in transport and training aircraft, but there are no figures on how those contacts progressed. There are figures for Enasa, which was another of the great beneficiaries of those sales. Enrique Curiel condemned the deals
again, which continued until 1985. In this case, 200 BMR-600 armoured vehicles were exported to the value of 5bn pesetas at the time (30m euros). "We conducted an investigation and came across a very irregular situation in which the Spanish administration's controls were very flexible", recalls Curiel, "Spain not only sold to Iraq, it also sold to Iran, which was the other side". Although the West backed Iraq in the struggle with Iran, Spanish sales to the Iranians were far superior to those made to Iraq. It is estimated that Spain exported arms to Iran to the value of
76bn pesetas at the time (456m euros).
As a result of that accusation, legislation was modified in Congress and the inter-ministerial committee's control over arms sales was tightened. What Curiel did not obtain was knowledge of the details of those operations, since the Socialist
government declared it classified material.
However, it was not the shipments of heavy arms, but those of chemical weapons that really set alarm bells ringing. Military reports indicate that in 1984 Iraq used mustard gas in the battle of the Majnun Islands. Several reports suggest that in that same year 2,000 kilos of this product had left the [then joint-use Spanish-US] airbase of Torrejon [de Ardoz, near Madrid] for Iraq. More surprising still is that the transfer was made in a US aircraft, now Iraq's reatest enemy. In the mid-1980s, UN inspectors also reported that they had found bombs in Iraq with Expal fuses.
Several sources indicate that the ERT group, which included Expal, was the company that did most business with Iraq. International Technology was another of the
consortiums that maintained most commercial ties. The exports of other companies, both public, such as Santa Barbara, and private, were often carried out through this company.

Deals in the 1990s

At the end of the 1980s, there were greater international controls and the commercial links of Spanish companies with Iraq diminished. Nevertheless, they did not entirely disappear until into the 1990s. As well as several construction firms that built hospitals, military housing and official buildings, the Gresca company built anti-aircraft shelters to protect Iraqi fighter planes. This commercial
operation had the consent of the Spanish government.
The business deals of these companies with Iraq were cut short after this country invaded Kuwait. However, the Iranian authorities had already reported that the
Spanish company Trebelan had supplied arms to Iraq before. Among these sales, according to the Iranians, were two huge trailers, exported in 1990. These, according to some military reports, were used to transport the Majnun and Al-Faw guns. These artillery pieces were used during the Iraq-Iran war and developed by Gerald Bull, a Canadian scientist who died in uncertain circumstances in 1990. The trailers are an example of "material of double use": they can be employed to transport tractors, but nothing stops them being used to carry guns.
The Spanish government defended the Trebelan operation at the time, arguing that none of the components it had exported were banned. However, the investigation had its consequences, as eight steel cylinders that had been manufactured by a British
company and which were bound for Iraq were seized at British customs. Apparently, they were meant to be used to build a super gun capable of launching missiles with nuclear or chemical warheads over long distances.
От Marat
К Marat (27.09.2002 15:46:11)
Дата 27.09.2002 20:28:40

в эту же копилку

Здравствуйте!

>>Нет, лучше так:
>>Мы сняли штаны, нагнулись, раздвинули ягодицы и готовы к... расследованию.

по поводу данного замечания есть типа "американского опровержения" или типа "нагнулись, но штаны то не совсем сняли" при этом "на лице удовольствия то не написано" - тьфу, аналогии то какие :\

State Department on Access to Ukraine Records on Alleged Sales to Iraq

(Source : US State Department; issued Sept. 26, 2002)

Following is the official answer to a question taken at the September 25 regular
State Department briefing; the answer was posted later in the day:

(begin text)

Ukraine: President Kuchma's Offer to Allow Experts Access to Records

Q: Has the Government of Ukraine contacted us yet regarding President Kuchma's offer to allow experts access to records regarding the alleged clandestine sale of the "Kolchuga" early warning systems to Iraq? If so, has the U.S. responded to the offer?

A:-- The Government of Ukraine has contacted us. We strongly have urged Ukrainian officials to be as transparent and forthcoming as possible.

-- Unfortunately, we do not believe that the Government of Ukraine has been candid with us in the past on this issue. We are considering the possibility of this type of visit by U.S. experts to Ukraine, but before proceeding, we would want to have confidence that Ukrainian officials are prepared to address this issue in a transparent way and that appropriate understandings about the scope of work and access were in place in order for the effort to be productive. (end text)

-ends-

C уважением, Марат