От	Геннадий
К	Холод
Дата	16.11.2002 18:30:24
Рубрики	Современность; Спецслужбы;

Расширю вопрос

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Уважаемый Холод!
Предвзятость списка бросается в глаза.
Я собственно и привел для того, чтобы Вы и другие дополнили.
То есть нужно не мнение (это и так понятно), а опровержение


>Чего он эту дату не апивел?

>>Петр Вайль, Радио Свобода:
>
>Буквы "Ш" пекред фамилией не хватает.



>>Геннадий
>С уважением, Холод

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От	Licorne
К	Геннадий (16.11.2002 18:30:24)
Дата	16.11.2002 18:38:35

Re: Расширю вопрос

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Этот урод привродит список без каких-либо комментариев. Всем давно известно, что заложники погибли от газа. Также понятно, что газ использовали из-за того, что террористы угрожали и действительно могли всех взорвать. Сравнивать это со штурмами, где всё решалось с обеих сторон стрелковым оружием просто некорректно.

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От	Геннадий
К	Licorne (16.11.2002 18:38:35)
Дата	16.11.2002 19:35:53

Имхо, Ваше возражение толково

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>Этот урод привродит список без каких-либо комментариев. Всем давно известно, что заложники погибли от газа. Также понятно, что газ использовали из-за того, что террористы угрожали и действительно могли всех взорвать. Сравнивать это со штурмами, где всё решалось с обеих сторон стрелковым оружием просто некорректно.
Сравнить, пожалуй, можно только с Маунт-Кармол. И то не совсем корректно - там газ был не усыпляющим, а слезоточивым, а угрожали не взорвать, а поджечься (и пожглись)
С уважением
Геннадий

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От	oleg100
К	Licorne (16.11.2002 18:38:35)
Дата	16.11.2002 19:21:47

Это не "клиника", это просто господин Вайль осуществляетсвое право на свободу

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выражения и свободу распространения своего мнения - вполне демократично, если не учитывать того мелкого факта, что у него этих свобод отчего-то в 100 раз больше чем у всех собеседников здешней уважаемой мной компании. Угадайте с одного раза - чей вариант войдет во историю и в школьные учебники для ваших внуков?

Олег

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От	А.Никольский
К	oleg100 (16.11.2002 19:21:47)
Дата	16.11.2002 22:32:14

г-н Вайль - американский бюджетник

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финансируется, как и его радио, из бюджета США, пусть лучше расскажет, как там с американской парламентской комиссией про 11 сентября. Сейчас поискал, вроде не нашел такой комиссии, хотя слушания были.
С уважением, А.Никольский

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От	Robert
К	А.Никольский (16.11.2002 22:32:14)
Дата	16.11.2002 22:51:19

Ре: г-н Вайль...

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>финансируется, как и его радио, из бюджета США, пусть лучше расскажет, как там с американской парламентской комиссией про 11 сентября. Сейчас поискал, вроде не нашел такой комиссии, хотя слушания были.

Плоxо искали, 366 голосов Конгресса "за" комиссию, трое против. Выбрано 10 конгрессменов (плюс штат помощников, ассистентов, юристов и т.д подчиненный им), будут разбираться 18 месяцев (независимое от прокуратуры, контрразведки и т.д. разбирательство) и доложат конгрессу и избирателям, кто виноват и в чем.

US congress votes Friday morning for 'independent' Sept 11 investigation. (Sept 11 --2001)
by underground and blind Fri, Nov 15 2002, 5:06pm
independent.
very independent. independent? yes the culture that gave us "independece day" now gives us an "independent inquiry into Sept 11th 2001.

full text by Thomas Ferraro on Reuters.com

selected excerpts for interested readers....
The House of Representatives approved legislation early on Friday to create a bipartisan, independent commission to conduct a sweeping probe into last year's Sept. 11 attacks on the United States.
(note attacks on the US not attacks on locations within the US, these are beofer the inquiry attacks on a nationstate)
The 366-3 vote came shortly past midnight and just hours after the White House and congressional leaders struck a deal on the long-sought investigation.
================(it愀 been talked about since Sept 12 2001, by the relatives and many other interests supporting the "international war against terrorism")

The measure now goes to the Senate, which may approve it as early as Friday, and then send it to President Bush to sign into law.

================[The last Sentate vote concerning current international affairs perhaps of interest to Irish readers, was the invasion of Iraq vote, Senate voted 23 against, and in the week of the IRish referendum oddly enough Congress voted 133 against)
The 10-member commission would have 18 months to examine how the assaults on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon outside Washington were able to take place, specifically looking into any possible breakdown in security.

================[how did Das Bild come to publish the identity of the pilots before Reuters for example c/f Das Bild Sept 13 2001]

Rep. Ray LaHood, an Illinois Republican, cast one of the three "no" votes, denouncing it as a "blame-game commission."

================[very good at playing games on Capitol Hill]
House Democratic Whip Nancy Pelosi of California disagreed, saying, "The purpose ... isn't to assign blame. It is to find out why .... We have to get to the bottom of this."
================[quite right to Nancy, right to the dirty bottom]
The administration had long opposed such a commission, arguing that a congressional investigation was better equipped to preserve national security secrets.
================[was the President "in the air" as reported by Cheney contrary to all normal safety provisions of the US executive during a situtation where DEFCON status goes above 3]

Even after it accepted the idea in September, it argued with lawmakers over its composition.

===============[lawyers don愒 we love 悶m]

But families of the victims of the attacks, in which more than 3,000 people were killed, led a public campaign for its creation, putting pressure on the White House and congressional leaders to finally reach their agreement on Thursday.

"This is a decisive victory for the families of September 11th victims and the nation as a whole," said Democratic Sen. Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut,
==============[ yes siree the very same Sen. Joe Lieberman who ran for office as vice-president]

who has pushed for creation of the commission since shortly after the attacks.

==============[ look at my comment above and c/f indymedia article link : http://ireland.indymedia.org/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=17293, very long but worth considering in "detail" where the devil is normally found.

"Finally we will get a clear picture of what government agencies failed, how they failed and why," Lieberman said.

=============[Lieberman is currently avoiding Israeli issues and is focussing his future political ambitions (the White House) with lots of help from his friends. [they愉e not all our friends by the way]

Congressional and administration negotiators agreed that the 10-member commission would be equally divided with five Republican appointees and five Democratic appointees.

=================[american democracy for you]

In addition, Bush would name the chairman and the Democratic congressional leadership would pick the vice chairman.

=================[well he would wouldn愒 he, to quote Mr Bush badly on the Iraqi parliament "its just a rubber stamp organisation".

SWEEPING PROBE

The commission would have 18 months to conduct a sweeping probe, with the White House funding it from existing accounts.

================[accountablity and published $ figures, will affect thoughts on lots, and be stopped by the "national security don愒 say how spend the black budget $]

Subpoenas could be issued by agreement of chair and vice chair or a vote of six of the 10 commission members.

================[possible extra-national territorial powers as ascribed to the US executive in the enabling act of late September 2001, are you waiting for the FBI to knock on your door? "where we you on Sept 11 2001?"

The commission probe would be broader than one already conducted jointly by the House of Representatives and Senate Intelligence committees, which focused on the failures of U.S. spy agencies. The commission would also look at a variety of other matters, from aviation to immigration.

=================[yes sirree the inquiry that blamed the FBI and led to new intelligence arangements, and larger budgets]
"I don't know why we couldn't have done this six months ago," said House Intelligence Committee Chairman Porter Goss, a Florida Republican. "It makes perfect sense to me."

=================[florida republicans weren愒 so secure six months ago]

The agreement was reached after a new round of talks between the White House and key lawmakers who pursued the commission -- Lieberman and Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican.

=================[arizona arizona great big place arizona]

They were joined by Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott of Mississippi, who will be the majority leader in the new Congress that convenes in January.

=================[the man who will comment on the Israeli elections of January 28th 2003, watch out for Sen. Lieberman愀 reply to that one, some press releases are worth predicting]
"Our agreement protects the principles we and the families of September 11th have pursued in calling for such a commission since last November: equal bipartisan membership, a broad mandate to review policies and responses related to the terrorists attacks ... and subpoena power to dig deep," McCain said.

=================[sub poena powers in american mean something very different to good old friendly european law or indeed Irish / British anglo-saxon law. think about sub poenas issued by Mc Carthy to the "anti-american" comitee.

=============go check out the newsreport.


related link: reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=topnews&StoryID=1744536


Sat 16 Nov 2002
Congress strikes deal on independent commission on 9/11


THE House of Representatives has approved the setting up an independent commission to look into the 11 September terror attacks on New York and Washington.

The 366-to-three vote came early yesterday morning just hours after the White House and congressional leaders struck a deal on the long-sought investigation.

The measure now goes to the Senate, which is expected to approve it and send it to President George Bush to sign into law.

The ten-member commission would have 18 months to examine how the assaults on the World Trade Centre in New York and the Pentagon outside Washington were able to take place, specifically looking into any possible breakdown in security.

Ray LaHood, an Illinois Republican, cast one of the three "no" votes, denouncing it as a "blame-game commission".

But the Democratic whip Nancy Pelosi of California disagreed, saying: "The purpose ... isn to assign blame. It is to find out why .... We have to get to the bottom of this."

The administration has opposed the setting up of the commission, arguing that a congressional investigation was better equipped to preserve national security secrets.

But families of the victims of the attacks, in which more than 3,000 people were killed, led a public campaign for its creation, putting pressure on the White House and congressional leaders to finally reach their agreement on Thursday. "This is a decisive victory for the families of 11 September victims and the nation as a whole," said Democratic Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut, who has pushed for the creation of the commission since shortly after the attacks.

"Finally we will get a clear picture of what government agencies failed, how they failed and why," Mr Lieberman said.

Congressional and administration negotiators agreed that the ten-member commission would be equally divided with five Republican appointees and five Democratic appointees.

In addition, Mr Bush would name the chairman and the Democratic congressional leadership would pick the vice- chairman.


This article:

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/international.cfm?id=1272912002

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От	А.Никольский
К	Robert (16.11.2002 22:51:19)
Дата	16.11.2002 23:14:30

о, спасибо - так это что, на днях случилось? (-)

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От	Robert
К	А.Никольский (16.11.2002 23:14:30)
Дата	16.11.2002 23:23:40

Ре: о, спасибо...

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Да, позавчера. До этого долго обсуждали на слушанияx, кто именно будет расследовать (депутаты любое большое дело в США обсуждают довольно долго, по-моему это свойственно всем депутатам в мире). Но решение о том что такую комиссию создают было почти сразу, долго утверждали именно ее состав.

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От	Robert
К	Robert (16.11.2002 23:23:40)
Дата	16.11.2002 23:36:49

Блин, недоглядел

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Первая цитата (там у меня две одна под другой) попалась с какого-то ИРЛАНДСКОГО сайта ( http://indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=17926&start=0 )с какими-то гнилыми шуточками-прибауточками не по делу. Извняюсь, недоглядел (искал новости Рейтера, а в цитате была ссылка на "источник-Рейтер", вот ее искалка и нашла).

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От	Геннадий
К	oleg100 (16.11.2002 19:21:47)
Дата	16.11.2002 19:33:33

И я бы не возражал

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>выражения и свободу распространения своего мнения - вполне демократично,
это и демократично, и нормально. Если б характер и количество публикаций в СМИ не было обратно пропорционально общественным настроениям. А вообще-то он осуществляет свое право на зарабатывание бабла

>если не учитывать того мелкого факта, что у него этих свобод отчего-то в 100 раз больше чем у всех собеседников здешней уважаемой мной компании.

Вот именно. Потому и приходится возражать

>Угадайте с одного раза - чей вариант войдет во историю и в школьные учебники для ваших внуков?

Ну, это ещё посмотрим...

С уважением
Геннадий

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